Tuesday, 22 May 2018

Lagom/Förenas a new; complementary, federated, embodied energy, Currency. Peoples Republic of Dough. Ethereums Most important conversation Ever #Web 3 Embodied Energy Money.

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The Peoples Republic of Doug was/is an early example of a disintermediated trustless contract based community enabled on the Ethereum Blockchain. Lagom and Förena are energy based complementary monies designed to be incorporated into regional national and international ecosystems for trustless value exchange contracts between communities, sectors and individuals.

I would advise readers to think about this advice from Henry Morely on reading Alexander Popes essay on man.
''The reader of Pope, as of every author, is advised to begin by letting him say what he has to say, in his own manner to an open mind that seeks only to receive the impressions which the writer wishes to convey. First let the mind and spirit of the writer come into free, full contact with the mind and spirit of the reader, whose attitude at the first reading should be simply receptive. Such reading is the condition precedent to all true judgment of a writer’s work. All criticism that is not so grounded spreads as fog over a poet’s page. Read, reader, for yourself, without once pausing to remember what you have been told to think´´.Henry Morley.




  • desperado_LCR_72 Member Posts: 12
    HI Andreas
    An amazing job!
    Two comments:
    A) You are modelling a Peoples Republic with a Constitution. I would suggest to generalize it a bit to Governance models for other, voluntarily joined, social associations like NGOs, political parties, etc. A Government is only a particular case. We would not talk about a Constitution, we would talk about Statutes. It's mainly terminology but inspires more flexible concepts.
    B) Where I felt the need for some more innovative approach is in the monetary part. We would need to bring in some concepts of Open Money here. In particular, the citizens should be able to issue the money (as a loan to the Peoples Bank). If you want to generalize, alternatives are its the Peoples Bank, or it is an enterprise (a private bank). The one I am interested: it's the people who create money out of the nothing.
  • Ok, the system is very simple at this point.

    Currently, I'm making it possible to issue government bonds. It is I think the only financial tool that will be available from launch.

    When it comes to the bank now - the senators are in control of the money, and since people elect the senators they are essentially the owners. The only thing that has to do with credit is I guess the bonds, and those are interest-free, so they're mostly just adding a bit of flexibility.

    When it comes to revenue, I don't know if it will be made through some sort of taxation, like recurring membership fees or maybe taxes on services that the organization provides (good, useful services are what will hopefully attract people to join). Probably it will be a little bit of both. I guess it depends mostly on what the (theoretical) users feel most comfortable with.

    I don't know what "Open money" is.
  • androlo Jamtland, SwedenMember Posts: 36 ✭✭
  • desperado_LCR_72desperado_LCR_72 Member Posts: 12
    Here comes a text hopefully inspiring the monetary system of your republic. The amount of code required is probably less than the one required for government bonds.
  • TuskTusk Member Posts: 33
    Nice work desperado!
  • desperado_LCR_72desperado_LCR_72 Member Posts: 12
    I will try to translate the bla, bla into an inventory of contracts to be coded
  • androloandrolo Jamtland, SwedenMember Posts: 36 ✭✭
    WOW! That is a lot of stuff!!! Thank you for showing all this. I just looked at it, but I will sit down tonight and read it through. It's exactly what I was looking for. It looks great!!
  • androloandrolo Jamtland, SwedenMember Posts: 36 ✭✭
    Seriously, this is awesome.
  • androloandrolo Jamtland, SwedenMember Posts: 36 ✭✭
    edited June 2014
    Some questions:

    "Money issued out of the nothing by the members, in their monetary sovereignty, for this period and lend to the Equalitarian Peoples Association."

    Technically wouldn't this be credit and not money? I don't understand it, would love if you wrote a short clarification. If anyone can create credit/money, wouldn't that make the economy very shaky?

    I'm not saying you're wrong, please don't get me wrong. I just don't know all these things.

    If you want "in" on this, I would codify a lot of this, and you'd be the political mind. You would be most welcome. I would love to have a private chat (text or voice, both is fine).

    androlo1980@gmail.com (Both for skype and e-mail)
  • desperado_LCR_72desperado_LCR_72 Member Posts: 12
    Yes, this is credit. This is what the fractional reserve banking money actually is. 3% of the money in circulation is fiat money issued by the Central Banks. The rest is bankers money made out of the nothing when they give credit. This credit goes into circulation and becomes by that "money"
    See Paul Grignon: Money as Debt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_as_Debt
    If you want something more official: MODERN MONEY MECHANICS
    http://archive.org/details/ModernMoneyMechanics
    A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion
    Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago
  • desperado_LCR_72desperado_LCR_72 Member Posts: 12
    Here comes a first Inventory of Contracts necessary for your Republic
  • desperado_LCR_72desperado_LCR_72 Member Posts: 12
    By the way, a project like that could have funding from the European Commission in H2020
    http://caps-conference.eu/
    http://caps2020.eu/about-caps/caps-horizon-2020/
  • androloandrolo Jamtland, SwedenMember Posts: 36 ✭✭
    This is great. The name "Republic of DOUG" is not set in stone. It has had more names. If the system turns more towards something different then a classical republic, maybe it should be changed. I would also change the money system (which is somewhat similar to what you suggest), and the name of the money etc., but I would really like to have a few words first. Skype would be fine, or just e-mail correspondence.
  • desperado_LCR_72desperado_LCR_72 Member Posts: 12
    ok androlo I will email you from desperado.theory@gmail.com
  • androloandrolo Jamtland, SwedenMember Posts: 36 ✭✭
    there is a live PRoDOUG now btw. on the latest chain. http://androlo.github.io/andreasweb/DAO.html
  • desperado_LCR_72desperado_LCR_72 Member Posts: 12
    Hi Androlo
    I have completed my series of articles to describe the financial instruments we would need for the Equalitarian Peoples Associations.
    1. An article describing the main structure of the Equalitarian Peoples Associations and a relatory about the main functions of the Commons Sovereigns, the legal tender currency. http://desperado-theory.blogspot.be/2014/06/commons-sovereigns.html
    2. P2P transactions do not need any explanations. They are usual transfers between Peer accounts in Commons Sovereigns
    3. An article about the P2P Credit contract. http://desperado-theory.blogspot.be/2014/06/p2p-to-b-credit-contract.html
    4. An article about the P2B sovereign currency generated as credit. http://desperado-theory.blogspot.be/2014/07/p2b-sovereign-currency.html
    5. An article about B2P type of currencies as a promise of goods. http://desperado-theory.blogspot.be/2014/07/b2p-type-of-currencies-as-promise-of.html
    What is pending is an article about currencies suited for B2B transactions. It is not that interesting because it either a mix of the instruments above or just a marketplace for the interchange of properties or a global currency like Bitcoin. Nevertheless, one of these days I finish it.








  • diedicardiedicar Member Posts: 1
    edited August 2014
    hello, very pleased to meet you, desperado. I'm myself working on something interesting about monetary policy. I understand your approach but I think that instead of issuing money out of nothing it could be more interesting issuing money out of some proof-of-something. Remarkably out of a proof-of -gift. This leaves the issuer without any obligation, no complaint is possible. Acceptance of this currency is stronger because the gift testifies in advance for its involvement in a transaction of goods (or services). This is far, far beyond the banking system, even a hyper-democratized one. I believe that Nick Szabo is indeed Satoshi, and I think crypto-ledgers could bring us back to our origins, as depicted in this nice essay. Have a good read: http://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/


  • https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_sThwX_Vd3pUlB0SDRzQnpvS2s/view?usp=sharing

  • Next stage of thinking this through.
    My Latest efforts for the design of (⨊ )Förenas, (⨊ )Förenas, (⨊ )Förenas, (⨊ )Förenas, (⨊ )Förenas!!!!!!!!!!!!!! & ⨋Lagom The next stage of thinking this through is to set out the Interactivity and value properties that Minters of ⨋Lagom ́s out of (⨊ )Förenas can specify into special offer based demurrage.
    Special features can be made transferable or personal to individual customers.) an instance of this exists in Band Camp where discounts can be applied to downloads where promo codes are sent to targetted people say journalists or someone that might promote the service being offered, The Affiliate programme of Genesis Mining is another instance.of rewards for increasing customer flow. I will work on a visual model of the existing banking system and also a descriptive visual mode of (⨊ )Förenas!!!!!!!!!!!!!! & ⨋Lagom with programmable features for both. One final question I am seeking to resolve is the conditioned response we have in referring back to a Fiat Currency as A unit of Account the practical functions of Means of exchange, Deferred payment and store of value all represent the intrinsic use value of money and yet the totally abstract and symbolic function that money serves as a Unit of Account or Metric is what conditions us to compare Bitcoin and other crypto fiat currency type analogues. Breaking that habit of thinking and linking the Unit of account to the value of the overarching network of users/merchants/customers is key I think to liberate the full potential of Complimentary cryptocurrencies. 
    class A store of value deposits denominated in the Unit of account?⨋Lagom mature at the expiry of demurrage premium to (⨊ )Förenas Mintable class B which acts as a token for deferred payment redeemable at Par. (⨊ )Förenas Mintable class B can be deposited with the central coop for term deposits for varying surrender periods which pay interest in the convertible value back to
    Swedish Kroner or back into mintable class b (⨊ )Förenas at a higher rate of return.
    Conversion back to Class B Mintable in a thriving system may become more desirable than
    conversion back to FIAT. As the scale of a federated Complementary currency increases the perceived desirability of FIAT would fall away.
    Programmable Features of ⨋Lagom
    ⨋Lagom are mintable via proof of Stake by holders of Class B (⨊ )Förenas Mintable class B deferred
    payment (MDP) Minted out of Class B (⨊ )Förenas are the programmable means of exchange
    tokens which enter circulation with programmed incentives by the issuers of them. The incentives will
    be for a period of time for the offer desired by the Merchant who can decide if the offer is exclusive to
    an invited audience or whether it should be transferable and for how long.
  • Velocity / Demurrage 1st design of programmable minted medium of exchange tokens. Class B means of deferred payment class b tokens and

  • Hi Roger (and Cc’d persons),

    I am reading through the attached .swf file (I had to look up how to open these on a Mac - but thankfully it was simply a case of dragging the file into Safari and Bingo!) 

    There are several elements within this that my pea-sized intellect doesn’t fully understand, but that is to be expected as I have never been a particularly analytical individual. However, I grasp the concept and do feel crypto-currencies are a leap forward. Prior to “the Bristol Pound” there was the ‘Southville Pound” (an area near Bedminster in Bristol) that was launched approx. 25 years ago if I remember correctly. It was very successful (to a point) and was basically a means by which the community could exchange services/favours with each other based on the perceived value of said service(s). It was by no means a fully-fledged currency, but it was a well-supported community ‘methodology’. Of course, modern technology now means this concept can reach a whole new level. The Southville Pound fizzled-out and was ultimately perceived as a novelty. The Bristol Pound is successful due to critical mass.

    When I listened to Dan Hassan being interviewed on the RT Russian News network (the link I subsequently forwarded to Roger) I was quite frankly ‘blown away’. This chap knows his onions, and was [apparently] barking-on about Etherium 3 years ago when no one was listening to him or taking him seriously - They are now! He is most definitely a visionary and of an extremely high intellect (even if he does look like he’s dressed more for Woodstock than the boardroom;)

    Algorithms v Asset Managers

    For the benefit of my own learning curve, last week I transferred €1,000 into Dan Hassan’s Robin Hood Minor Asset Management, which I understand will be pooled and invested at the start of next month. Currently, liquidity is a mute point, as any withdrawals take approximately 6 months to extract, but I am confident that over time this surrender period will shorten dramatically (as inflows support liquidity). What I like is that fact that their in-built investment algorithms for the fund have beaten the S&P500 over the last 12 months, beaten all S&P500 tracking ETFs, and beaten 80% of actively managed funds with an S&P500 benchmark - an achievement in itself. Backtesting is also solid.

    Although this is not directly relevant to Crypto Currencies, it is relevant in terms of the investment ‘space’ as the investment program is substantially different from what’s gone before it. Typically, investment algorithms have a tendency to be too clever. They can never foresee the future and are predictably poor at reacting to external market forces. This new approach is different as the whole system is designed around mimicking what the major players are doing - in real time. It has no investment bias and simply ‘goes with the flow’. (KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid!)

    The other dramatic change is that you can fund your investment via Crypto Currencies (BitCoin etc.) as an alternative to cash. This is a major change for asset management/investing and one to take note of. I am sure ‘the powers at be’ are pulling their hair out over the extensive Money Laundering implications, as effectively dark money can [potentially] be invested into the stock market and washed-through. How this is going to be overcome is anyone guess? It has the potential, however, to create huge inflows of cash into markets (great for liquidity) and sidestep brokers (good for longer-term competitive pricing models). Obviously (save Crypto Currency speculation) it also removes a lot of FIAT currency volatility for investors wishing to invest globally without being affected by a fund(s) base currency. This is excellent (IMHO) and hugely beneficial not only for private investors but also long-term company cash and large pension funds, both of which can be educated in the benefits of removing [more] currency risk from their [current] FIAT denominated funds.

    OK, now I can smoothly link into Crypto Currencies from here…

    The Big - VERY BIG picture

    Although I will bow to everyone’s judgement/consensus opinion, personally I can’t see any attraction in keeping things too regional. Yes it may be good for local businesses (all very nice and ‘touchy-feely’) and a local cryptocurrency has its attractions for making savings and retaining cash in the community - but is it not too restrictive? (Please don’t shoot the messenger - I am merely being my usual controversial self;)

    What about…..
    Taking the bull by the horns (Reindeer, Elk or whatever other 'Beast of Bodmin' you relate to over ’there') and doing something MAJOR for a country like Sweden. i.e. A Swedish Crypto Currency where, say, corporate & state pension(s) and/or an element of annual salary could be enhanced (10%?) if taken as say, Swedish förena (unite in Swedish?) - hey, I like that. An ABC’ism if there ever was one….effectively giving people more spending power (nationally) and ensuring the capital is spent/remains in the country etc etc.

    Get some major companies onboard first and subsequently push for government support as part of ‘the revolution’. This would certainly be an achievable goal? You never know - this element of ‘income’ could eventually be paid tax-free if it benefits the country as a whole. Salary as Krona - bonuses in förena? The list goes on…

    This message is simple to understand and simple to sell. (It must be - even I get it)

    Any enhancement to employee benefits has to be a good thing (including staff retention) and good for the Swedish economy too. Sure, the vast majority of Krona is likely spent in Sweden already - but more could be? and it is likely to stimulate the economy if you factor-in a B2B förena discount/invoicing scheme too? And it would mitigate one of my major pet-hates. Large corporations' stranglehold on SMBs via lengthy invoice settlement periods - which is inhumane and outright disgusting behaviour (IMHO). The intrinsic benefits of a more fluid payment system to assist SMBs to survive is hugely important, even if they need to entice their larger corporate clients via an additional discount for using the CryptoCurrency. For SMBs - CASH FLOW is KING!

    We only need ONE major employer to ‘see the light’ and it could realistically snowball from there. Going ‘ball-to-ball’ in a boardroom is something I don’t have an issue with and I think I would actually revel in this role. The one thing I know I excel at is being tactfully untactful. Humour & honesty pays (IMHO).

    Start ‘local’ where the territory is better known - but think National

    One currency for ALL - not messy currencies for lots of different regions etc. As a consumer, I would be happy to receive say, a 10% uplift on [an element] of my salary to be spent in Sweden - but I’m buggered if I want to be restricted to spending it in one or two districts. This is a ‘freedom movement’ (sizzle) on a national scale (sausage).

    Investment Management

    This is a no-brainer in my view. Commissions/fees could be offset/paid for via “förena” even if the investments themselves are held in Krona, EURO or USD etc. Longer term, of course, the investments themselves could be managed/held in a Crypto Currency if said ‘coin’ proves to be stable, reliable and can be recommended to investors without bias and under the principles of “best advice’. In the interim, investors can immediately benefit by paying for fees outside of their investment(s) so that what is invested is not reduce by charges as much (the more actually invested - the more an investor stands to gain/loose etc.)

    Although I do not have any clients yet (advising expats offshore) the above is already my business model so that more of a [potential] client’s money is invested from outset, with the ability to pay my fee (a modest 1%) externally so as not to impede what is invested on the client’s behalf. I am happy for an investor to reimburse me via cash, PayPal, BitCoin or whatever - so an alternative Crypto Currency is merely an extension of this, perhaps with a reduction in my fee for payment via the “new” Crypto Currency” as an incentive. I can’t see this being an issue whatsoever and it would encourage investors to embrace a new way of paying? (all assuming anyone loves me enough to want to take my advice in the first instance of course! :)

    Certainly, longer term a “förena” ETF or similar type fund isn’t out of the question to invest in Swedish listed firms, with “förena” as the base fund currency? 

    What’s in it for ME?

    An obvious point, and an important one. 
    Some discussion/agreement needs to be reached as to a pricing model. I am not greedy and I embrace this type of change - as I can see the benefits to many individuals and institutions. However, it will involve a lot of hard work, outlay and dedication and I cannot afford to be a charity - especially if it involves flying from Asia to Europe frequently to get this off the ground.

    I have spent a lot of time with Wordpress/Plugins and I am happy to design and implement a website or modify an existing one to bias in favour of what we are looking to achieve. See my two current ‘themes’ for reference:



    Personally, I think “as2ute” is crying out to be used effectively and it does [sort of] complement our “message” and is short and ‘catchy’ enough to get noticed?

    Summary

    I hope I’ve not waffled-on too much? I am conscious that the [above] is theoretical rather than statistical, but that’s just the way I approach these things. As I have said, I am not a technical person, but I do have an ability to take certain aspects and break them down into digestible chunks. I have always believed in the motto “If you don’t understand it - don’t do it!” (Bankers take note;)

    I also fundamentally believe in what Peter Hargreaves (Hargreaves Lansdown - now Billionaire) told me when it came to marketing:

    “ABC - If you can’t sell it to me on an A5 piece of paper - Fuck off!” (And yes - that had to include the application form as well!)

    He also had an uncanny knack (when I first started at HL) of taking my client report recommendations of say, ten pages, and rewriting them, doing it better, explaining it clearer and all on no more than TWO pages. It became a charming ‘battle of wits’ in the end and after about 2 years I noticed he had perused one of my reports and put in back on my desk (without telling me and [finally] without any alterations and/or additions/subtractions) adding in bright red pen across the top:

    8/10 ABC - You’re not completely fucking useless! PKH”.  

    A compliment indeed. 

    PKH = K.I.S.S. and I admire his business prowess immensely. 

    I trust that together we can adopt a similar K.I.S.S. mentality/philosophy with our potential venture.

    Thoughts anyone?
  • https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_sThwX_Vd3pWExLLWtFVk9zcHEtV2xfMXR5UkhETEk4S2JJ







  • The answer depends on what the ultimate aim is for the questioner.
    The issues are, Centralisation versus decentralisation Issues revolve then around the production of money and distribution of money  In Crypto world, the euphemism for centrally created is Pre Mined, of course, it is not pre-mined at all in the case of Stellar, Cardano, Ripple and of Course Tether. The next layer of the money creation question then comes to Real Pre mining which is to do with allowing an exclusive group usually the development community to mine for a period at the genesis block to a further period which effectively reserves a big chunk of the first money created to rest in the hands of a powerful group, this question is often discussed in initial coin offerings. The most famous pre miner is, of course, Satoshi ( him/Her self ) The Genesis blocks and the keys to the first bitcoin blocks are in the hands of the mysterious Satoshi and amount to 10% of all bit coin in existence the video I sent yesterday of Heart and Verr discussing Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash has a large section when this is discsussed other videos I sent have included discussions of the Monero Crippled Miner and also the Genesis mnining of Dash and Ethans fast one regarding who got the lions share and hence control of a supposedly distributed and decentralised value system. Ethereum tackled all of these questions and was and is very transparent there is still a high concentration of power as represented by concentration of token control at the top but not as bad as say Ripple and Tether- The next question you get is, is it open source and how truly open source and accessible is the decision-making process ?  this is the much-vaunted Consensus algorithm stuff. The Byzantine General and all of that, At this point you get to the Hard Forks soft forks and Discussion regarding Bitcoin Gold/Cash/core etc. Craig Wright (I Think he is Satoshi or Half of Satoshi who I believe were he and his US friend who died of Cancer a few years back now ( details are important) I.e Satoshi never was just one person the intial effort was a group effort including Nick Szabo and some other noteable Cypher Punks, you also have to factor in people like Julian Assange and WikiLeaks which is all part of the same movement that Bitcoin emerged out of. So that takes us back to who are the good guys and bad guys the answer to which is you pays your money and makes your choice or in my case you Build your miner and choose your Currency/pool. I mine EThereum but will in due course be mining ETHER ( for as long as I can I:E Proof of Stake) Ethereum Classic, the debate between Ethereum and Ethereum Classic, dates back to the DAO hard Fork and the DAO Hack. This is the bit about Rolling back the Block Chain. Heart, is against it in the Heart Verr interview, I think he's wrong to be absolutist about it, I agree with Ethereum Classic in many ways but think they were wrong to say that the Dao Hacker should have been let off the hook. I Like  Ethereum, Dash, Monero Bitcoin Gold/ Ethereum Classic Bitcoin  Bitcoin Cash SIA Coin  IBIQ and BISQ as an exchange Finally, I like Gold and Silver and Lanthanides ( rare earth Metals ) Lietears Terra made into a Crypto would be the ultimate good Guy the work I did a year or two back on currencies in this space tackles all these questions http://www.lietaer.com/2010/01/terra/


    Barry Silbert obviously has his head screwed on, yesterday I also listened to a rather longer and more technical interview here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhI3YrVRiUE, regarding Dash Coin, I also spent some time researching Dark Coin, I will read the white papers for both and recap further on both before enumerating my thoughts on how they potentially point to directions we might consider for Gå Föres Tilsammans Bank.

    Gå före tillsammans ⨊Före(s)
    ⨊Före(s)And⨋Lagom(s) Putting the Complementary into Crypto Currencies!.
    DASH:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhI3YrVRiUE Daniel Diaz, the Dash business developer, shares the network's latest announcement regarding the prioritization of block rewards to fund fiat gateways. Partners for gateways include Deginner, CryptoCapital, & Coinapult.
    Dash homepage: http://dash.org
    Fiat gateway budgetary plans: https://dashtalk.org/threads/prioriti...
    Deginner: http://deginner.com
    Coinapult: http://coinapult.com
    CryptoCapital: http://cryptocapital.co



    BITCOIN DARK;

    http://bitcoindark.com
    From Darkcoin manifesto.
    Key currencies.
    '’Volatility has characterised most cryptocurrencies to date, compromising what would otherwise be a desperately needed store of value. BitcoinDark will enable users to ‘lock’ funds against real-world currencies, commodities and stock indices, redeeming them for their value in BTCD at a later time. Together with its real-time exchange, this will enable users to trade effectively and manage their own accounts and portfolios of investments, entirely outside of the existing financial system’’.

    On the point about Financial services offered and not functioning solely as a currency that is exactly the point ABC. The differentiation to gain traction and add value in a democratic marketplace as opposed to apeing the existing monopoly practices in the industry is the key. Essentially what I see emerging as the opportunity here is to take the Blockchain and Ethereum platforms, to program financial services functionality into a debt-free decentralised complimentary currency.

    ⨊Före(s)
    A massive amount of financial services innovation has gone into non-productive Algo trading and derivatives Contracts. Speculations on money as a store of value and completely ignoring the means of Exchange. ( That's what the Quote from Cruetz’s money Syndrome of the Deutsche Bank CEOs is seeking to demonstrate in my earlier e mail.


    Nice to hear from you. WIR Bank is definitely a good model. I was reading more about JAK bank here in Sweden which is an interest free 30000 owner/member bank that has been going since the 60´s it is modelled on a Danish bank of the same name. http://communityrenewal.ca/sites/all/files/resource/MW200351.pdf
    https://www.jak.se/content/membership-0#.VvteYRN96g8 The idea of JAK is more general and consumer (household) driven than WIIR which is SME driven. With respect to complimentary currency design The attached booklet People Powered Money

    Is well worth reading.
    The Magrit Kennedy link sent yesterday with the Interest observations of Creutz are tremendously important and the research into the Chiemgauer also linked which gives the evidence of propensity for complementary currencies to circulate locally 20 times over 7 times for a national currency. Complementary Currency ( Lagoms focus on money as Means of Exchange ) Föres provide backing and convertibility back into FIAT and work as a store of value, the main focus of a federation of Local currencies is to provide liquidity a store value is not helpful to liquidity and requires a
    '' A question was put to the former chief of the Executive Board of the Deutsche Bank, Hilmar Kopper in an interview in a TV network in the spring of 1991: “What is it that gives money its actual value?” One might have expected Kopper to refer to the performance of the political economy that provides the cover for our money. But the reply of the banker was short and to the point: “The time factor means that it (money) increases through interest”, and to the inquiry of the astounded interviewer: “Money without time is then nothing?”, he confirmed the same in more detail: “Money without time means nothing, of course it can be spent right away. But that does not multiply money, money is then turned into something else.” This definition of a former banking expert is significant. According to him, our money is not primarily for the purpose of mediating an exchange of goods and services in the economic system, but more for self-propagation!''
    Interest as a Means of Redistribution / 8 Excerpt from Helmut Creutz The Money Syndrome Towards a Market Economy Free from Crises
    https://realcurrencies.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/monsyndrome_ch-7-18-21-22-1.pdf
    I look forward to discussing other aspects you raise on Skype .
    All the best
    Rog


    https://realcurrencies.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/monsyndrome_ch-7-18-21-22-1.pdf

    Look at the Dark Coin Exchange here. https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_btcd This is merely apeing all the worse features of Casino Capitalism and is antithetical to Complementary currencies supporting real commerce and acting as a means of exchange rather than focusing on a store of value and speculation on spreads on future value ratios.


    This famous cartoon shows The Golden Tail ( Store of Value) wagging the Silver ( Means of Exchange Dog ) it is from 1896 at the time of the famous William Jennings Bryant Cross of Gold Speech. One point which cannot go unconsidered is the point that Atom bank make but don’t back up as far as I can gather, and that is that Blockchain technology gives parties who wish to contract to exchange the opportunity to bypass banking intermediation or any other intermediation, effectively every transaction potentially has its own private bank as a special purpose vehicle. If this negates traditional bank intermediation services and Bankings monopoly to Originate money through credit, is also gone. Are we looking at the famous African Blue Bank, is it deceased, has it ceased to be and gone to meet its maker?

    Time for an out of the Box moment. We are not doing Banking but we are reinventing The Mutual Credit Society, and / Or Building Society. We are also removing Usury and Speculation from the model as well, Both WIR and JAK have done that and it is a clearly successful model. We need to look at the cooperative finance services offered by Mondragon Corporation as well, they have a cooperative structure but otherwise do everything on a full financialised Capitalist basis, contrasting the three models and abstracting into what we are proposing

    1.a ´´Mutual Blockchain Federated credit Union´´ And

    2. a ´´Federated Programmable Complementary Means of Exchange Currency´´ and

    also our own version of the Dash ‘’Fiat Gateway´and Dark Coin manifesto commitment to; ‘’BitcoinDark will enable users to ‘lock’ funds against real-world currencies’’’ We need to develop the concept of Store of Value as a secure path to savings ( not hoarding or speculation’’ Our store of Value would be based along the lines of

    3. a ´´Mutual general retirement and insurance fund’’,

    if one looks at the current Financial Landscape and adopt the 180 degrees mirror opposite approach essentially that is what a financial services institution designed for the customer would look like. It is both sad, shocking & remarkable but, non-the-less true.

    Zeitvorsoge

    A good example of using a community currency to facilitate co-production of public services is the ‘Zeitvorsoge’ – literally ‘time- provision’ – initiative, launched and financed by the City of St. Gallen, Switzerland. Its main objective is to allow retired but generally fit senior citizens to save time-credits through helping those in need of basic care. Several local elderly-care organisations provide volunteers with opportunities to earn time-credits. The city itself acts as guarantor, ensuring that credits can be redeemed at any date in the future for similar care services if and when the earner requires them, either through the elderly-care organisations or peer-to-peer. This puts people in charge of their own care, allowing them to define and meet their own needs – crucially, however, with the professional and financial support of public institutions. p.47 People Powered Money.

    We are looking for a store of value that would send an actuary to sleep effectively.

    Some Notions to Conjure With.

    ⨊Före(s) = Store Of Value; Federated Mutual Savings Bonds.
    ⨋Lagom(s)= programmable and Customisable Means of Exchange
    ´´Mutual Blockchain Federated credit Union´´
    ´´Federated Programmable Complementary Means of Exchange Currency´´
    ´´Federated Mutual general retirement and insurance fund’’,
    Gå före tillsammans ⨊GåFöre(O⨋)The FederatedMutualSociety.
    ⨊Före(s)And⨋Lagom(s) Putting the Complementary into Crypto Currencies!.



    Its been a patchy week for me trying to pull together the very wide and disparate elements of a proposal along these lines. A few days more mulling over the People Powered Money Book and following up in more depth on the Examples it offers will help I think to provide a sketched framework within which we can identify a starting point or Pilot area and project.



    ⨊GåFöre(O⨋)The FedratedMutualSociety.



    Lets chat through further thoughts and comments over this weekend. Happy Birthday to Angela for yesterday.



    Rog



    ⨊ GåFöre(O⨋).

    The FederatedMutualSociety.


    On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 12:49 AM, Andrew Boyett-Camp <abc121@me.com> wrote:
    Hi Roger,
    Very interesting what this guy was saying on Fox. A repeat of my last email even? (OFW's, traditional banks not being innovative due to legacy systems, opportunities for financial services etc.)

    Although he didn't state it categorically, he also 'implied' that the Blockchain infrastructure is the key - even with +500 cryptocurrencies in the mix, most won't gain any traction.

    As stated in my last email. Western Union is buggered!
    A WIR/Atom bank type setup (with a bias toward 'community spirited finance') and based on Blockchain technology, I personally feel provides much more scope than a currency alone.

    I do concede that one very dangerous area is home loans/mortgages, as, without strict lending criteria, P2P type home loans is just another bad debt crisis waiting to happen...


    Time to write the white paper and start building the DAPP.