Brexit and President Trump Angst. A message for Snowflakes ´´Fuck off to your safe space , or , Engage and debate.

´Fuck off to your safe space or engage and debate´. Johnathan Pie
I am really disappointed with Labour. Corbyn seemed a good guy with integrity. Although I obviously didn't support him per se as I belonged to a different party.
It has been disappointing anyway that he has been ignoring our calls for cooperation and the absolutely necessary electoral reform which Labour needed (as no chance on a majority anymore with Scotland lost, FPTP, UKIP and boundary changes).
However whipping his MPs to vote for art 50 has really been wrong on so many levels. They will loose credibility to the many remain voters and remain Labour supporters. So to whip or trying to get 100% of Labour MPs to vote what 27% of eligible voters (or 52% of actual voters) wanted, isn't democratic or fair.
And I thought Labour was the opposition. Why not give the bloody Tories a hard time on this hard Brexit?
If Labour was to join with the Green, SNP, Libdems etc MPs and refused to vote on art 50 before conditions are being agreed, the Tories would have a problem (particularly as not all Tories would vote for art 50, some would abstain others even vote against). Then Corbyn's amendments could be agreed before the vote. To agree to vote for art 50, then wanting to discuss amendments is plain stupid. His bargain chip is gone. Corbyn isn't responsible for the referendum but he is responsible for failing to oppose hard Brexit, May and this dreadful Tory government!!
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Roger Lewis Kat the people I am dissappointed in are all you greens ignoring the Manifesto pledge for an EU referendum now weasel wording on the Result.

if the Eu respected subsidiarity it would not be so ignorant of the Votes to reject its policies, in Greece, Ireland, ( It opposed the Scots Indie referendum, And of course Brexit).
The EU is not democratic and the power to initiate legislation lies with technocrats not people elected by and answerable to Citizens in various Nation states. The Parliament is a mere rubber stamp talking shop and the EU´s policies are determinably Neo Liberal. Green PArty policty was for reform of the EU, back in 2015
Europe
The Green Party recognises that the UK is part of Europe and that we cannot cut ourselves off from our geography or its political
realities. Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia.
Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding,
environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as
welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful.
However, we prioritise local self-reliance rather than the EU’s unsustainable economics of free trade and growth. We would not
adopt the Euro, which cannot work properly without much deeper political integration, and this would be contrary to our policy
of subsidiarity.
We support the proposal to have an in–out referendum so that the British people can have their say. This is because much has
changed since the UK joined the Common Market in 1974. Endless debate on membership is a diversion from more important
matters, such as ending inequality and adapting our economy to One-Planet Living.
So it’s yes to Europe, yes to reform of the EU but also yes to a referendum. This is the policy that led to the election of an
additional Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, in the South West last year.

Carolines position on Brexit is a betrayal of this 2015 manifesto commitment which ever way you look at it.
http://davidmalonegreenpartycandidate.weebly.com/malone...
LikeReplyRemove Preview24 hrs
Kat Boettge First of all, this post isn't about another discussion about the EU. Secondly yes we were in favour of an referendum (although I disagreed personally!!), but how this referendum was conducted with the simplistic question was wrong.
LikeReply23 hrs
Roger Lewis You think the answer was wrong Kat, you could at least be honest about that.
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Kat Boettge Roger Lewis of course I disagree about the referendum outcome. However I am not arguing about that here. I accept the outcome but I don't accept with the Tories hard Brexit.
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Roger Lewis The question of Hard Brexit is one for the EU , as a trading Nation the UK is offering to trade freely as it will now with former commonwealth countries and the USA. The idea that the UK does not have a strong negotiating position to both obtain access to other markets and to maintain consumer and environmental protections is ridiculous. The EU has pushed on with CETA and TTIP whilst quiet may well because President Trump didn't like TTP and there is every reason to believe TTIP is equally neo liberal in its provisions which hurt US working people their pay and their conditions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laDAvi6RBMc
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Roger Lewis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaZqM3yeq5Y
An interview with #Chrystia Freeland starts at 0750. http://www.bbc.co.u…
YOUTUBE.COM
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Kat Boettge Roger Lewis yes being part of the EU would have protected us much better against trade deals as we have some democratic say there alongside other progressives see TTIP. Now it's only up to May....
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Roger Lewis Kat that is nonsense, Westminster for all its faults is more democratic than the EU. By 2020 if the Tories balls up the UK as they seem to be ballsing up the NHS will be held to the account of the Electorate. Now that the EU will be out of the way that is one less impediment to democracy on your argument an extra layer of technocracy leads to a more direct route of electors to the elected, that is fanciful wishful thinking Kat.
LikeReply1 hr
Kat Boettge Roger Lewis that's BS! With FPTP, a House of Lords and an unelected Queen! I haven't voted for any of the MPs, PM, ministers, lords or the queen! At least in the EU we have more democratically elected MEPs (with PR), the council etc are selected by elected governments. It's not perfect but far more democratic than the UK.
LikeReply239 mins
Roger Lewis If you follow your own circular logic there Kat you will see that it is not the case.
LikeReply6 mins
John Marshall I think that the GPEW has moved on. Yes, most of us see advantages in remaining in the EU but we also recognise the reality of what is happening. We absolutely must keep our environmental laws intact and they are at risk in a hard brexit. We can and should do much better than the tax haven linked to the USA notion that many seem to have. In that scenario all will be lost to the neo-liberal, traditionalist views of Bannon, Putin, Farage etc. Most of the things we hold dear will be lost in trade deals. Forget the NHS, food standards, freedom to discuss and share as we do now. Ours will be the loneliness of Plato, not the freedom of Socrates.
LikeReply3 hrs
Kat Boettge My post isn't about the EU in or out but what kind of Brexit Labour and others could have gone for.
LikeReply23 hrs
Steve Pag Pagett We will be back in Europe before long. The reality is, the world will stop trading with us if we can't get on with our neighbours.
LikeReply13 hrsEdited
Alan Story A question for the Greens: why is the Green Party running a candidate in the Stoke by-election where UKIP leader Paul Nuttall is running?. Yes, the LP candidate is a local LP hack....but most GPEW votes would instead be going to the LP. [ BTW- I am not a member of the LP.]
LikeReply3 hrs
Alan Story Simon Ashley Cross : Spoken like a person who has not heard Carolyn Lucas' call for electoral co-operation.
LikeReply13 hrs
Kat Boettge Alan Story yes alliances are really worthwhile considering and I am personally in favour of them (depending where etc). But we are a bottom up party, each local party can decide for themselves if that's a good idea. Even Caroline doesn't say we should do alliances everywhere. Labour didn't even stand down in Richmond. Why not ask them?
LikeReply11 hr
Alan Story Hi Kat Boettge: 1) Of course not everywhere, but this does seem a pretty pivotal by-election; 2) I am not in the LP. 3) By "them" I assume you mean GPEW in Stoke. I am going there: if I bump into them I will.
LikeReply1 hr
Peaceful Warrior Alan Story I'm keen to see that the foundations of our party be kept in tact. Namely that the responsibility for the decision is with the local party of
Stoke.
Greens do have autonomy even if we collectively agree on most areas of policy and action, and as such I personally would not chastise them for their decision. They better than anyone surely know their place/electorate.
Being Green doesn't mean we'll all agree all the time, but it does mean we continue to show respect to those members that follow their own course of integrity.
As a party we talk about progressive alliances because they can be useful to realize the changes our world needs. But not allways, there are those that would trick us into letting our voters get taken to the cleaners...
I fear that Labour will ever get the meaning of cooperation since they have been taken over by politicians who don't actually work for the voters who elected them but for the corporate machine instead.
😳
LikeReply157 mins
Phien O'Reachtigan Simon Ashley Cross Have you discussed this with the OP of this thread?
LikeReply49 mins
Alan Story Peaceful Warrior Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree that LP 'tribalism' --- we need a better word! --- is mind-numbing....and 1 of at least 25 reasons I am not an LP member.
LikeReply38 mins
Nigel Miles Well said Kat😄
LikeReply13 hrs
Tom Jones He is a democrat, its quite simple
LikeReply3 hrs
Roger Lewis Hello Kat, my previous comment disappeared. The distinction as to Hard Brexit or any other kind of Brexit is an exercise in Hair Splitting.
Why do you think the Green Party Manifesto commitment is no longer relevant?
My objection to Caroline Lucas´s rhetoric on Brexit is that it is also Elitist and as such un democratic. The notion of the EU being the solution for anything other than solutions allowing further Elite control is counter to the GP value of Subsidiarity.

Heres 2015´s Manifesto on Europe.

Europe

The Green Party recognises that the UK is part of Europe and that we cannot cut ourselves off from our geography or its political

realities. Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia.

Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding,

environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as

welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful.

However, we prioritise local self-reliance rather than the EU’s unsustainable economics of free trade and growth. We would not

adopt the Euro, which cannot work properly without much deeper political integration, and this would be contrary to our policy

of subsidiarity.

We support the proposal to have an in–out referendum so that the British people can have their say. This is because much has

changed since the UK joined the Common Market in 1974. Endless debate on membership is a diversion from more important

matters, such as ending inequality and adapting our economy to One-Planet Living.

So it’s yes to Europe, yes to reform of the EU but also yes to a referendum. This is the policy that led to the election of an

additional Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, in the South West last year.

https://www.greenparty.org.uk/.../Green_Party_2015...

Effectively what we see with the Joint Leaders stance on Brexit is a tacit breaking of an explicit Manifesto Pledge.Caroline has a mandate amounting to 37% of Eligible GP votes or half that if one divides Bartleys share down the middle. It seems to me that Ms Lucas neither speaks for the Green Party and is certainly not speaking for the British People.

https://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blogspot.se/.../two...
LikeReply3 hrs
Steve Howard If there are any disappointments to be accorded to anyone surely it must be your own Leaders and the Lie Dems and the Labour rebels who flaunt the democratic will of the National Majority. Rather than work with the decision and stop the Country from exiting through other means such as terms and conditions the Greens et al have shown their true colours and its far from green, I might add. There was absolutely NOTHING to gain by not acceding to the Referendum result and everything to lose. Not least the country's respect and the respect of other less democratic countries around the world that want to become more democratic. They will look at Britain for leadership and see a rag bag of people who for reasons best suited to their own needs deciding to dispense with democracy because the result was inconvenient. Literally last week we had an example of an inconvenient truth being flaunted and it took other west African states to correct the will of the majority. Had we failed to trigger Article 50, which in itself is only the start of a long and drawn out process and which has many opportunities to correct the perceived mistake of the electorate, this country would have slid down the dangerous path of a collective dictatorship-a politiburo by any other name !!! What amazes me even more so is that apparently intelligent people are giving credence to what is and will always be a clear cut attack on democracy itself. Long may democracy and all its flaws live. The alternatives are too hard to contemplate!!
LikeReply13 hrs
Kat Boettge I'm not talking about ignoring the ref results at all. But to agree on a hard Tory Brexit without ensuring the conditions first is not strategically good nor good for the country!
LikeReply137 mins
Chelley Ryan OK so JC did something you disagree with. However how can he always do politics exactly the way 'you' want. He is leader of the opposition for the entire country...not just you...or just for Remain constituencies. He's also a democrat who doesn't sneer...See More
LikeReply33 hrs
Steve Howard totally agree, Chelley 
LikeReply13 hrs
Steve Carr As always what's best for Labour! You have lost your heartlands already
LikeReply2 hrs
Kat Boettge Read my post! I was even referring to Corbyn's own amendments. So agreeing art 50 before his amendments have been agreed is not in the best interest of Labour. Forget even the rest of us! It's plain stupid for Labour's own aims. Plus they suppose to be an opposition!
LikeReply35 mins
Chelley Ryan Kat Boettge Labour will table amendments and may be lucky enough to get some through if enough Tories rebel. The point is though they cannot block Brexit. They do not have the numbers. So voting against loses us all leave seats, and gives the Tories an electoral advantage that keeps them in power for decades. Is that really offering opposition?
LikeReply17 mins
Steve Carr We live in a democracy. Not tyranny of the majority. You ignore 48% of voters at your peril.
LikeReply13 hrs
Steve Howard No one has suggested that the 48% are ignored . this is where the ability to forge compromises comes in. At the end of the day even the Tories have said they govern for everyone and it is now incumbent upon all MP's to ensure that in their headlong rus...See More
LikeReply2 hrs
Steve Carr Well we are being ignored
LikeReply2 hrs
Steve Howard Steve Carr No WE are not. WE will fight for every concession that we can. I love Europe and think the country must have had a blackout or summat. I will leave to live in France if it carries on being so stupid. However at teh moment we must explore all...See More
LikeReply2 hrs
Kat Boettge Steve Howard so why agree for a hard Tory Brexit without first ensuring Corbyn's own amendments? Makes no sense.
LikeReply34 mins
Christian Starkey Well said kat. Corbyn and Labour have been utterly useless opposition on the EU issue and much else. May has had such an easy ride. I did vote for Corbyn in the summer, but I left the LP before the leadership votes were counted, so guess my vote for leadership did not count. I rejoined the Greens. A cooperative opposition with pro EU Parties would have been democratic to represent the 48.1% rather than just forget we ever existed. This is a nation of division rather like the USA. I wish the Scots well for independence and the end of the United Kingdom
LikeReply22 hrs
Ross Benjamin Camplin Some of the comments on here are quite frankly pathetic and embarrassing.

I look forward to the now inevitable Northern Irish border poll so we can rejoin the EU and rid ourselves of the ignorant little Englanders intent on wrecking our country. Good riddance.
LikeReply22 hrs
Roger Lewis Ross some of us felt that Lexit was the right position.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4
The left case for Brexit. We had two weeks and £6,000 to make a film,…
YOUTUBE.COM
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Ross Benjamin Camplin You were, and are wrong. Useful idiots helping the Tories take the UK off a cliff edge, whether you realise or acknowledge it or not.
LikeReply12 hrsEdited
Roger Lewis Ross, I suspect we will have to wait and see.https://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blogspot.se/.../on-good...
LETTHEMCONFECTSWEETERLIES.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY ROGER LEWIS
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Roger Lewis https://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blogspot.se/.../is...
Is Brexit a Lifeboat or a Deckchair? The World Economy is in trouble, it is based upon an…
LETTHEMCONFECTSWEETERLIES.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY ROGER LEWIS
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Peaceful Warrior Sadly we need to realize that Labour are just as much a part of the problem as the rest. Corruption is in all its stupid arguments and policy.
Capitalist and corporate influence is deeply controlling Labour just as it does with the Tories.
😳
LikeReply1 hr
Phien O'Reachtigan Kat Labour under Corbyn is the only real alternative to a Tory government. The denial of that and the chip chip away of his support by other less membered/supported parities not only aids the Tories but makes it less likely that there will be a government that would be prepared listen to them or consider any policies they might have. Help get rid of the Tories and then start your bartering.
LikeReply50 mins
Joe Belcher How about Labour just doesn't exist anymore then all their current support can get on with their lives and support a better party.
LikeReply51 mins
Joe Belcher PFI, Iraq, Tuition Fees? Labour are guilty of being sometimes terrible. It's not good enough.
LikeReply49 mins
Kat Boettge Can you please reply to my point above to agree to art 50 before amendments have been agreed?
LikeReply33 mins
Phien O'Reachtigan The crux is getting a government that is likely to heed the Greens etc..
LikeReply5 mins
Roger Lewis Trade with the EU matters a lot, but less than it used to

About 44% of UK exports in goods and services went to other countries in the EU in 2015—£220 billion out of £510 billion total exports....See More
Kat Boettge So far nobody here in favour of Corbyn has actually replied to my point. Read my argument and reply? Why agree to art 50 before agreeing on amendments????
LikeReply130 mins
Joe Belcher Silly decision.
LikeReply31 mins
Roger Lewis Its a lets get this party started argument Kate. The procrastination is un democratic and Corbyn is quite right to worry that ignoring Labours political base will throw mmore Labour Voters into the arms of others, definitely not the greens now though.
http://labourlist.org/.../the-referendum-is-over-labour.../
Joe Belcher Are you a green member Roger?
LikeReply28 mins
Roger Lewis I vote Green as an Anarchist I do not belong to any political party and part of why I voted green was its 2015 manifesto pledge for an EU referendum. I also voted Green as my Freind David Malone shares my views on the need for Monetary reform also represented in the 2015 Green Manifesto. Why do you ask?
LikeReply26 mins
Joe Belcher You don't give off the vibe of a green member.
LikeReply25 mins
Joe Belcher Roger Lewis No Roger you're wrong again. I don't care if you disagree with me or not, you come across as a troll.
LikeReply22 mins
Roger Lewis Joe Belcher Joe , you are like many what I call Green Fascists who can not stand to hear evidence that does not support their own prejudices. https://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blogspot.se/.../more...
LETTHEMCONFECTSWEETERLIES.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY ROGER LEWIS
Joe Belcher Roger Lewis No Roger I think you're a bellend and you will soon be blocked because you're a bellend.
LikeReply18 mins
Roger Lewis Joe, I think you should perhaps remind yourself of where all the Ad hominem has come from in this discussion. I arguue from Evidence and produce evidence which I think supports reasoned argument. Not being able to tell the difference between a troll an...See More
 If  Truth were subject to  Patent Law. Red Lines, Settled Science, The end of History and entitled Facts. I did a blog abo...
LETTHEMCONFECTSWEETERLIES.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY ROGER LEWIS
Mark Copestake so why is triggering article 50 thus beginning negations in Ernest a betrayal ?. Corbyn and the LP will still be fighting, this is mischief making we can do without. I wonder what you would have been saying if they had decided to oppose the result of the referendum. Seems to me JC is dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't.
UnlikeReply28 mins
Chris Atkins This how politics works. Sadly Corbyn keeps bottling it.
LikeReply7 mins
Chris Atkins Corbyn is a spineless Leader who deserves to be ousted. I'm sorry but his Party are more concerned for their 'heartlands' than doing their job.
LikeReply19 mins
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